another dog with SA, Updated 11/3

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sariv	another dog with SA, Updated 11/3		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1051 10/29/09 2:12 PM	I just wrote a long post and lost it, so just in a nutshell: New-boy, Murphy, is fine in his crate as long as I'm home. When I leave, he screams and moans, drools and pants, doesn't touch his deliciously prepared kong. He has kept it up for 2 1/2 hours (the longest I've been gone). I have to go back to work starting Sunday, and he'll be alone for 4 hours in the a.m. and again in the afternoon. I've done all the crate enhancing things I know of- feeding him in there, putting treats in with him out, and I don't think he is afraid of his crate, per se. Just afraid of being left alone. Neekoh is crated in a different room, and I'm reluctant to put him in there, as I worry it will stress her out, and I don't know if it would even make any difference. He's not ready to be gated in the kitchen cuz he is very oral, and I'm beginning to panic a little myself at the thought of leaving him on Sunday. Sari & the 3 BCs Last Edited By: sariv 11/03/09 9:11 AM. Edited 1 time.
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SW845		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21504 10/29/09 2:19 PM Professional Trainer/Owns Board	Was someone home who knows it was for the full 2.5? Not touching chewies and kongs is not unusual. Any crate damage? Any Murphy damage? How much drool is in the bottom of the crate? Is his bedding soaked? Is he soaked? Sarah Wilson Your dog can change but you have to change first.
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sariv		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 10/29/09 5:53 PM	Neighbor said it was pretty constant for 2 1/2 hours. She was working outside, and even though my windows are all closed, it was quite audible. He has slid the bottom pan about halfway out, but I've since added some clips, and yesterday, it stayed put. He hasn't injured himself, and the crate is otherwise intact, so those are good things. Bottom of crate is pretty wet with drool, and his crate pad is all bunched up in the end, and pretty damp. His ruff, which is quite full, is wet, and his feet are wet. This afternoon, I was working in the basement for an hour or so, and he carried on the whole time. Was panting hard when I came back upstairs. Do you think he'll adjust as time goes by? Tomorrow being Friday, I'm considering asking the vet for some alprazolam. What do you think? Sari & the 3 BCs
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Salty Dogs		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6020 10/30/09 8:24 AM Dog Sports Trainer/Moderator	Does he ever go in the crate voluntarily when door is left open? No secret reason for asking, just wondering. Thinking back to when Willa was a puppy and how severe her reaction to being crated was - eyes dilated, pools of drool, no noise, though. It was about being in the crate not being left alone. Not sure what could help you if it was "the crate" as you wouldn't want to leave a young, untested, oral dog free. Patty
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SW845		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21504 10/30/09 9:07 AM Professional Trainer/Owns Board	Time to crate games - teaching him to go in on cue, having him wait and rewarding that mightily, working on his down and wait with an open door, putting his food in a closed crate and making him yearn to get in it... won't be a quick fix but it's a start. Sarah Wilson Your dog can change but you have to change first.
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sariv		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 10/30/09 9:09 AM	Wiley was like Willa with the crate, Patty- just lost his mind with terror, though silently. Murphy will go into his crate if I toss a treat or some kibble in there, and he's fine in there as long as I'm here. So for him, it's not the crate, it's being left. Sari & the 3 BCs
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sariv		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 10/30/09 9:13 AM	Was typing at the same time you were, Sarah. We've done some crate game stuff, and we can definitely up that. Maybe i'm just being too soft about it; i just feel so bad for him when he is panting, drooling and looking so stressed. I've definitely seeen worse, with dogs soiling themselves, ripping toenails, destroying the crate, etc. He's not at all at that point, but I don't want it to escalate to that either! Sari & the 3 BCs
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Salty Dogs		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6020 10/30/09 10:20 AM Dog Sports Trainer/Moderator	There's a DVD called Crate Games by Susan Garrett - I finally bought it - haven't finished looking at it though. Will let you know if anything in that seems applicable. Although frankly, it's probably geared toward performance dogs. She does do this for relationship stuff as well - but she's not addressing such a fundamental issue as SA as Sarah might. Are you thinking that because he's not silent it can't be the crate? Or because he will go in there at other times? I recall neek having something similar with her Andy, although I don't remember all the details. He wailed and wailed and drooled etc. Went on FOREVER if she left him - but in the end it seemed it was the crate. I'm not doubting you, you're there and you're a wise dog woman - just sharing anecdotes in case anything helps.....
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sariv		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 10/30/09 2:29 PM	Why, thank you, Patty. Yeah, it seems to me that since he is quite content crated as long as I'm nearby- he's been snoozing away for about an hour, while I'm on the computer, which is right next to his crate- that it is my absence that sets him off. I've been working in various parts of the house, with him in his crate, and he starts to whine when he can't see/hear me. I pass by (and ignore him) as I'm doing things, and he isn't stressed at all. Sari & the 3 BCs
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sariv		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 11/03/09 9:10 AM	A bit of an update: I was gone 4 1/2 hours Sunday, and came home to an intact crate (yay!), and a panting, drooling, howling dog. Took him out, where he peed a little, then brought him back in, where he began to roll around on his back, with pee spouting like a sprinkler. Lesson learned. Dog has submissive/excitement peeing issues. Make sure dog empties bladder, and then tether in kitchen for a while and ignore. He certainly is a lot of work! He is 3, but he is a baby in so many ways. We're learning together Sari & the 3 BCs
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SW845		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21504 11/03/09 11:59 AM Professional Trainer/Owns Board	Oy! Have you been able to start other training with him? I know, tons of work but with Aussies (and other working dogs) they soooo benefit from mental structure and direction. And, to help him settle mentally, work needs to be spatial and touch based, not say clicker based. Clickers are great but they are all about working dogs who want to work and we need to help him make better choices when he doesn't want to/is distracted/would rather do etc... Use food rewards, absolutely... just pretrain him on how to respond to gentle pressures and they use those to create rewardable behaviors. He probably needs this more than he needs plain exercise. Keep us posted... Sarah Wilson Your dog can change but you have to change first.
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sariv		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 11/03/09 2:07 PM	I've never used a clicker with any of my dogs- just haven't gotten into it. We've been doing lots of space games, and he no longer jumps on me at all. He's great with sit, and nearly always sits when I approach him now. We practice 'look at me' a lot, and he is getting the hang of it. Also working on wait, which he is very good with for me, but when they're all going out, he wants- very much- to be first, so that is a definitely one to work on. He will go into his crate willingly now, and stay there as long as I am right there, telling him to wait. He settles very well when tethered; I usually give him some favorite chew toys, and he plays a bit, but konks out and sleeps pretty quickly. Are these the kind of things you mean? Sari & the 3 BCs
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klwit307		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2619 11/04/09 9:26 AM	One thing I've started using with Lincoln (at the strong urging of our Behaviorist) is music. Just starting with him, but it does seem to have a positive effect. You may be interested... www.throughadogsear.com At the least, it's interesting! Kevin , Gracie Lou CGC (the Booger), and Lincoln (Assistant Booger) Gracie's Blog Linc's SA Blog Support our Military Working Dogs
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SW845		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21504 11/04/09 10:47 AM Professional Trainer/Owns Board	That IS interesting - can you fill us in more on that? Sarah Wilson Your dog can change but you have to change first.
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klwit307		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2619 11/04/09 11:01 AM	Nutshell-non-brainiac (READ: My) version: Studies in Ireland and here showing canine response to psychoacoustic arrangements is the same as human response. Simple pieces with minimal instruments (piano or piano/cello/oboe) which have had the more complex parts removed (but nothing added to the original piece), at around 60 beats. Show a slowing in heart rate and breathing with general relaxation even to the point of falling asleep! Clinical studies were done in shelters and homes with a marked decrease in anxiety and signs of anxiety (barking, panting, drooling, tongue flicking, etc). It does seem to have an effect on my pups, but still too early to tell for sure. It certainly doesn't have any adverse effects! Got the book and starter CD at the library, so it didn't cost me anything to give it a whirl! Kevin , Gracie Lou CGC (the Booger), and Lincoln (Assistant Booger) Gracie's Blog Linc's SA Blog Support our Military Working Dogs
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kchriste		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 7863 11/04/09 12:32 PM Trainer/Senior Member	Any specific pieces you can recommend?
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klwit307		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2619 11/04/09 8:40 PM	The folks who wrote the book did four albums and researched them all. The one that had the most significant and positive results is "Music To Calm Your Canine Companion" Vol 1. They have several titles available, all tweaked for dogs and people. Not expensive, available all over the place, including a couple via iTunes. Kevin , Gracie Lou CGC (the Booger), and Lincoln (Assistant Booger) Gracie's Blog Linc's SA Blog Support our Military Working Dogs
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sariv		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 11/05/09 7:41 AM	Thanks for the link, Kevin. I looked at it (my computer isn't so good at playing music) and it does look interesting. I have a 3 volume set of CDs called "Pet Music", 'inspred by veterinarians and researched to show that it reduces SA, eliminates stress,' and makes your dog read at an early age. I bought it to help with Wiley's thunderphobia. I wonder how different it is from this one? I'll have to listen to some of the music on your link when I get to work. Thanks for the suggestion Sari & the 3 BCs
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sariv		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 11/06/09 3:49 PM	I listened to the Bach prelude and the Schuman piece, and they were incredibly soothing- could have easily lulled me to sleep He seems to be doing somewhat better, at least not worse. Still not injuring himself, and not escaping from the crate. Still screaming full tilt, though. I've never heard anything quite like it, except maybe from a husky? His addled little brain does seem to be making connections in general, so I remain hopeful. Sari & the 3 BCs
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SW845		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21504 11/06/09 7:48 PM Professional Trainer/Owns Board	If you have an old crate around, use the bottom half as a place/bed for him and tether him near it so he uses it. Keep working on the open door crate wait - without you hovering at all. Go back and reward (always with him in a down) frequently, calm, low key attention. When you release him- ignore him for a few minutes (have other dogs and toys away). Then repeat. See if we can't get him hanging out in there relaxed and down... Sarah Wilson Your dog can change but you have to change first.
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sariv		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1051 11/07/09 9:13 AM	I'm using a wire crate, as he really goes beserk in a plastic one- I think he feels more trapped. He likes best to have his crate right in the middle of things where he can see and be somewhat a part of what's happening. I'll continue to work on him being in there downed, with the door open. He does well, while I'm hovering: I stop by and drop kibble and walk a little ways away. When I go farther, he pops back out. So far, he's only relaxed if I'm in sight., and monitoring pretty closely. Do you think the bottom half of the plastic crate would still be a good plan? (I'm reluctant to take it apart and drag it back up from the basement...................... he is wearing me out.........) Sari & the 3 BCs
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another dog with SA, Updated 11/3

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