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trouble at the dog park

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mbtb	trouble at the dog park		Lead	[-]
Posts: 80 07/19/08 1:01 PM	We have been taking Trouble to the off leash park in the evenings. It is a nice park, with really nice people who keep their dogs under control, and the dogs are very well socialized. Trouble loves it. However, we had a problem last night, and now I'm worried about taking her back. Her recall is not completely solid yet. She does okay if there are no distractions - the off leash park is one big distraction. We thought this was okay as we just walk around after her as she runs and plays, and the whole thing is fenced and double gated. Last evening, her currant playmate was leaving. They were careful not to let Trouble out, but then, as we watched from a distance, Trouble managed to squeeze UNDER the gate!!! Thankfully, that particular gate leads to a path, not to the parking lot. I tried to stay calm (ha!) and went hurrying over to the gate calling her in the happiest voice I could manage. Luckily, the people who just left also realized what had happened, and stopped and encouraged her away from the second gate and to come find me. The little devil actually did squeeze back under the gate and came running back to me. She didn't go near that gate again, but I'm concerned she might try again. She is growing fast eneough that it shouldn't be a problem for long, but do you think it is safe to take her back,or am I being totally paraniod? She LOVES going, and playing with all the dogs and people, and really is much better behaved when we go regularly. I'd really like some thoughts on this one! Thanks Margaret - Trouble's mom Children should be seen,heard ......and believed.
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packopeebs		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 894 07/19/08 1:26 PM	Let her go, but have her drag a long line - it will be a pain to untangle, but it will also help you to practice those recalls and if the little bugger trys to squeeze under the gate again, you can get her. Just be careful when she is playing with other dogs - they can get tangled up together which could be a potentially baaad situation.
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serenav		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1184 07/19/08 3:22 PM	I don't think you're being paranoid. Daisy has squeezed through small openings and taken off so now I'm very careful about studying the fences for any holes. If it's a small area of the fence that's a problem, can you block it off with a trash can or something? This wouldn't work if it's the entire fence obviously. I have a long line which I have taken to the park once or twice, but for the reasons packopeebs mentioned, I'm very nervous to use it around other dogs. Even if we stay on the far side of the park away from other dogs, I still think it's potentially dangerous. Once, Daisy took off to chase another dog that suddenly bolted and before I could react she had pulled the leash so fast that I had blisters on my hand. Now I only use it if the park is empty.
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KellieB		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2798 07/19/08 4:56 PM Senior Member	I thought most parks won't allow dogs on leash in there, for just the reasons you mentioned...??? ~Kellie
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beckybishop		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2517 07/19/08 11:14 PM Professional Trainer/Moderator	Ok, just read your other post and see that little Trouble is only 12 weeks old. Let me make this REAL clear for you. DO NOT take puppy to dog park. It's not just the escape potential under the gate. Puppies can be silly, not pick up at all on other dogs social cues, other dogs that may not be puppy tolerant. Also, she is barely vaccinated. I would suggest you wait until she is over 6 months old. I'll admit, I am not a fan of dog parks but I am also a realist and I know my clients will go there so I advise them to at least wait for puppy to be more of a "dog" to lessen the chance of injury. DO NOT put a long line on her at the dog park, this is unsafe, she can tangle with other dogs. But wait, there's more! Find other puppies, same age and good older dogs that will school her in a good way. Taking a 3 month old puppy to the dog park is like this: You have a 2 year old human baby, he's just a pistol! So, you go over to the junior high school and you ask the teenage boys if your 2 year old baby can play touch foot ball with them, because he just LOVES playing with other humans. Of course, they say "SURE!" and now you have a two foot toddler, out on the field, in the middle of bigger, albeit nice kids, running around and running around blindly, hormones pumping through their veins. They are stimulated and touch football soon becomes tackle! The big kids are pushing and shoving and sometimes, they even roll over onto your two year old child, YIKES! Now, your two year old, being the pistol that he is, he loves this. Sure, he's bruised, has a chipped tooth and a ripped ear, but it's SO fun! He really doesn't care. Mommy, can we come back? Are you kidding? The gap in the gate Trouble goes under is the least of my concern here. Your puppy, like a 2 year old child who can not ruff house with teens, should not be exposed to groups of dogs that you do not know, are much bigger and can, even in on friendly roll, harm her. My last client, last session, dog was 3 months old. They let him play with the very friendly labs down the road and he was rolled again and again. Seemed fine, slight limp, broken leg. $2700.00 vet bill to repair his broken leg and now, my bill for the fear he suffers upon the sight of a Labrador. Not worth the risk. Go to group classes and have play, but controls are in place to protect. Last Edited By: beckybishop 07/19/08 11:39 PM. Edited 11 times.
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cdturner		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5335 07/20/08 12:13 AM Moderator/Rescue	Becky is absolutely, 100% right. A 12 week old puppy shouldn't be on the ground in any area frequented by lots of dogs, especially when their vaccination status is unknown, and they may have all kinds of parasites. Some vets insist that puppies shouldn't leave the owners' home and yard until all vaccinations are completed, usually at about 16 weeks. I'm neither a vet nor an expert trainer, but I think this is probably overkill, as you're missing the pup's main window/critical period for socialization. I can understand the vets' caution though. They have watched puppies die of parvo, distemper, and other illnesses, despite their best efforts to save them. This eliminates dog parks, rest areas along interstates, PetSmart/PetCo, etc., and vets' offices. When your pup goes to the vet, carry him/her in and hold him while you wait, or wait in your car. The exam table is sanitized between patients, but the floors are not, and dogs who have all kinds of ailments have been in there. As Becky also points out, if your pup has a bad experience with other dogs or humans at such a young age, it could take her a long, long time to recover from a major trauma, if she ever does. Dog play is great. If you can set up play dates with other pups, or with calm, vaccinated adults, at your home or theirs, Trouble would benefit from the interactions much more than she will from a free-for-all at the dog park. Carolyn
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Muffen too		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 60 07/20/08 6:42 AM	Margaret, one other thing to think about. Please be careful with Trouble during this stage. Samoyeds have a tendency to injure their hips when young. We hip score our Sams here when they are about 18 months of age. In the first 9 months to a year, play is limited with larger dogs. Walks are controlled and short, several short walks a day, never long ones. Flat out running, e.g. Misha wanting to run circuits with the Border Collies who lived next door, is not allowed. Being on the hind legs is discouraged, usually by placing a hand under the chest and lifting down. Stairs and jumping in and out of cars do not take place until they are about 10 months old. I did teach Misha stairs at about 4 months so she wasn't scared, but she had controlled ascents and descents...me alongside her in both directions. All these precautions ended up with Misha having a hip score of 4L/5R for a 9. A litter sister who was allowed to play with the 'big dogs' and do stairs, jumping, etc. has a hip score of 26. We know it was environmental as she has a low score on one hip and high on the other. Genetic influenced scores will be fairly evenly split. I know it seems as if Trouble won't have fun, but she will. Personally speaking I used the time to bond with and train Misha in obedience and ringcraft. We also found our vet had Puppy Parties where it was controlled play and socialization with pups of an age and matched by size. It was a great way. Also, our obedience trainer allowed a play period, again matched by size and a few pups at a time, after class. After having one Samoyed rescue who had diabolical hips, I vowed to take the best care possible and I hope it paid off. This is a formative time for little Trouble's bones! If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience. Woodrow Wilson Misha Mischief
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beckybishop		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2517 07/20/08 11:31 AM Professional Trainer/Moderator	There are, for now, lots of places you can take that are safe. The best way to socialize a puppy this age is a puppy class that has supervised play. Muffen makes another good point. At this age, her hips are very vulnerable and joints soft and still growing. When they are this young I know it's fun to take them out and let them run and see them in all their glory but you have to think long term. The odds of an injury, or illness is so great not worth the risk.
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Salty Dogs		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4838 07/20/08 3:31 PM Dog Sports Trainer/Moderator	Also, injuries incurred in their youth may not actually haunt them until they are older. They may appear as if they have not injured anything, but have crippling arthritis at the site of a serious injury undetected in youth. This is NOT to say they should be kept in a bubble and not do dog things - but some reasonable precautions as Becky describes should be taken. I know it's a drag, cause the humans at dog parks enjoy talking together so much - but they can be the worst place for our little buddies under certain circumstances. Sorry to be a downer. As to the hole under the fence, whoever is responsible for that park's upkeep needs to mound dirt/wood chips at that spot to get rid of the gap under the fence - but that's an issue separate from your dog being there. Patty
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mbtb		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 80 07/20/08 5:24 PM	Okay, WOW! I didn't realize that it was that problamatic to take Trouble to the dog park. I had okay'd it with our vet at the last visit. So far all the interactions have been appropriate, but it only takes one bad one...... So now, new questions - Trouble is a very social little dog. We don't know anyone else with a puppy. We do have a friend with a dog about 14 months old. They have met once, and they got along well, but Bruce is a lot bigger than Touble (great dane/shepherd x). They do a lot of running and playing when together. Is that okay? There are a few parks here that we go to that are not dog parks per se, but dogs do go there and do go off leash. However, there are very few dogs at any given time - maybe 2-3 at once, and the parks are very large. We tend to go there to work on Trouble's recall, etc. Also, we are teaching her to play fetch, which seems to involve a lot of pouncing on her part - is that okay? In terms of stairs, they are just a fact of our existance, but Trouble is still quite cautious on the stairs, and we are always with her on the stairs. She does like to jump, but the only real spot to jump is off furniture, and we are teaching her to stay off the furniture, so that doesn't happen very often. As for walks, she goes for walks about 3 times per day, 15-25 mins each. Now I feel like I have no idea what is okay to do with her. Margaret - Trouble's mom Children should be seen,heard ......and believed.
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beckybishop		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2517 07/20/08 8:52 PM Professional Trainer/Moderator	If the dog you know plays, has well timed corrections such as a "Grrrr" and Trouble back off and most of all, the dog does not roll her over, like a pro football player making a tackle, I think short 15-20 minute plays work fine. Go to www.meetup.com and see if there are any local puppy meetups in your area. Sometimes there is practically this underground network of puppy play groups. Your vet. I'm sure h/she meant well but may have not thought it through completely. Also, many of the vets I work with have never frequented a dog park and are unaware of what all goes on. Also, and this was a few years ago but at least here at our dog park they took a survey and 37% of the dogs that came, owners confessed that their dogs were not vaccinated. My vet says "Off leash parks keep me in business. If was a big year for Giardia!" (That is the park near us) Last Edited By: beckybishop 07/20/08 8:56 PM. Edited 1 time.
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kchriste		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4879 07/21/08 10:52 AM Trainer/Senior Member	Get thee to puppy class.
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mbtb		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 80 07/21/08 11:38 AM	Puppy class starts tis weekend!!! We have been waiting for it! Margaret - Trouble's mom Children should be seen,heard ......and believed.
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FBlue2		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 21 07/21/08 5:11 PM	Luckily my dog isn't small enough to crawl under a fence. Have thought about calling the parks department and seeing if they can fix it? If you get no action there maybe you can try and fix it yourself with a bag a dirt. Maybe you can get some zip ties and put them on the bottom of the gate, leaving a part of them hanging down towards the ground. Maybe the dogs won't try and go under with a bunch of stuff hanging down. Maybe you can get a bucket or something and leave it sitting in front of the gate. There can be any number of ways to remedy this situation if you put your mind to it.
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